Wikipedia talk:Notability/Archive 76

There has been heated debate recently over the claim by some editors that all train stations are inherently notable. Proponents of this idea say there is a long-term consensus establishing inherent notability of train stations. Opponents state that there is not a specific policy or guideline establishing any inherent notability. An RfC was held in 2019 [1] on this question, and closed with no consensus to find all train stations inherently notable, while also identifying several aspects of the question to be further considered. I am starting this RfC to follow up on the previous one in 2019, and attempt to come to an answer on the question of inherent notability for train stations.

I foresee the following possible outcomes of this discussion:

1. All train stations are inherently notable.
2. Some subset of train stations are inherently notable (for instance, excluding flag stops).
3. Train stations are inherently notable, but may still be merged into other articles, a la WP:NOPAGE.
4. Train stations do not have any inherent notability, and must be evaluated individually against WP:GNG and/or subject-specific notability guidelines. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:23, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 - all stations are inherently notable I support this option because
  • I think it is highly likely that the construction, opening, and closing if applicable of a station would have been covered in the press but it is also likely that this information is offline, in another language, or both. Therefore I think it is likely that most stations would pass WP:GNG
  • I do think separate articles are beneficial for navigation using the adjacent stations and Special:Nearby. I was mocked for saying this but I stand by it. These features, as well as the improved categorisation (readers using categories to navigate may not find station information if it is all on the line article rather than in individual station articles) improve the reader experience in my opinion. There is also the question of where to merge content for stations on multiple lines.
  • Keeping all railway stations is consistent and easy. I think arguing over the notability of thousands of station articles would be a drain on volunteer resources. Railway stations are generally an uncontroversial topic and require little maintenance so I see no harm in keeping these articles.

My concern is that there are apparently 7,000,000 train stations in the world and am concerned about anything that would "green light" 7,000,000 articles on train stations. BTW, I think that reasonable folks (including NemesisAT) mostly just want to get this sorted out, and I asked for their thoughts on their talk page. This is a separate issue from some considerable drama at some train station AFD's about a sidebar issue about unsupported claims on the sidebar issue. North8000 (talk) 23:51, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

• • option 1 is my least preferred of the options presented - Almost to the point of opposition. I really don’t see any justification for saying that every train station in the world is notable. Blueboar (talk) 00:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2 - Some subset are inherently notable
  • I could live with this… but would want fairly strict limits on what constitutes the “subset”. Blueboar (talk) 00:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3 - Inherently notable, but may be merged
  • I could live with this, although I would do a LOT of merging. Many stations are better covered as short paragraphs in articles about the route/line. Blueboar (talk) 00:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 - No inherent notability - follow GNG
  • Definitely my preference of the four options. If (as is often the case) all we can say is that a station exists (verified by and cited to a timetable), we can not say it is notable enough for a stand alone article. More is needed. Blueboar (talk) 00:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• • I will expand my thoughts later but this is closest to what I'd support with the caveat of I don't think that train stations are inherently going to meet GNG but I think the standard should be somewhere around/between "GNG -- major metropolitan area" and most train lines, especially passenger can probably be integrated into line articles - I say this not as a train aficionado, but as someone who spent 5+ years commuting in the DC metro area from Baltimore. Not every train station is notable, by any standard. They're basically the equivalent of bus stops on commuter lines (in fact, I can point out three on my old line that outside of existing, are definitely not notable and service less pax than a bus stop in the boonies) and they're not really stops on most freight lines (in the US, particularly) as they have end to end destination points. PRAXIDICAE🌈 00:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

I think before going further we need to discuss what we mean by a "train station." That encompasses the following (at least):

1. Physical stops on heavy rail routes that receive scheduled service from passenger trains
2. Physical stops on rapid transit routes (metro services, subways)
3. Physical stops on light rail routes with actual physical infrastructure (buildings, platforms)
4. Physical stops on light rail/streetcar services with little or no infrastructure
5. Flag stops on heavy rail routes served by the above, but potentially with limited or no infrastructure

I would assert that under current deletion outcomes the following of the above are always or almost always kept: 1, 2, 3. 4 and 5 are often merged into lists. The principle here is the physical footprint. Subway stations, for example, given the invasive nature of their construction, inevitability generate enough coverage and documentation to pass the GNG, as do new build heavy rail stations. Mackensen (talk) 00:46, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• (EC) Option 4. I really, really do not see why GNG should be bypassed for this particular topic. We are not a directory, but that seems to be the only argument for inherent notability ("navigational ease"). If we can't definitively establish sufficient coverage exists for a subject, we should not have an article on it, even if it means there are red links in some list somewhere. This should be true across the board, not just for whichever topics don't have a large enough community of enthusiasts to lobby against requiring SIGCOV. JoelleJay (talk) 01:06, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 - There's a reason "trainspotting" is a real thing, but that doesn't necessarily translate to presumptions of notability on WP. If a station is notable (and for purposes here, GNG and NCORP may both have to be considered) then it can stand on its own rather than the claims of notability from editors. --Masem (t) 01:12, 3 July 2022 (UTC) I don't think train stations should be considered under NCORP, they're infrastructure, and should be considered under solely GNG and/or NGEO. If we started requiring NCORP requirements in infrastructure then it would be a significant determent to Wikipedia's goal as a gazetteer. Jumpytoo Talk 18:17, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 On one level, there's no reason for a special case of bypassing GNG or bypassing the wording in SNG which always says that it is a mere predictor of GNG. On another level the main intent of GNG is to see if there is real content of the type to build an encyclopedia article. If such is demonstrated, then you both pass via GNG and have an article. If not, you don't have either. In that case, all of the useful info from a typical one of those articles would fit nicely in (and is best covered as) a line in a table or list. North8000 (talk) 01:50, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• Option 4. The days of inherent notability are behind us. Cbl62 (talk) 02:45, 3 July 2022 (UTC) You haven't provided any reasoning here. NemesisAT (talk) 08:01, 3 July 2022 (UTC) Not really if one sees how Wikipedia:NPOL and Wikipedia:NGEO are applied, which "grants" or "allows" it.Djflem (talk) 19:46, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. Trains stations with significant coverage in reliable and independent sources are notable; train stations without it are not. Notable train stations may or may not justify a standalone article. BilledMammal (talk) 03:59, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3/4 As per WP:5P1, Wikipedia is partially a gazetteer. Train stations fit into this section, and thus we should be collecting information about every train station somewhere. But, that does not mean we should be making train station articles willy-nilly even when we can only say trivial stuff about them (ex. location, services, number of platforms/exits...), where a valid merge target exists. I think the best way forward is to make articles in the following cases:

• WP:GNG is met (with a fairly soft source evaluation)
• Enough information is available to create a Start-class article & there is some non-trivial content as defined above (though this usually infers WP:GNG)
• As a rule of thumb, transfer stations have murkier merge possibilities and generally making articles instead might be easier. This would more be on a case-by-case basis, for examples situations where 2+ lines share several stations (interlining) could be merged together.
• To complete a set if most of the other stations on the line meet one of the above points (I value consistency over a hard application of the guidelines; it looks weird if every station on some route has an article except one/two of them)

• Option 1 per WP:GAZETTEER and existing consensus at AfD. Assuming we can substitute "inherently" for "presumed to be", the latter allowing room for occasional exceptions where someone can show that no, we can't actually say anything verifiable about this particular train station. Probably also finessing the definition of "train station" to discuss whether light rail stops count too. But having an article on every train station should be an uncontroversial, encyclopaedic goal for Wikipedia as a general-purpose reference work. Sadly we seem to have entered a phase of our history where notability is treated as some sort of prescriptive theology (are the GNG and SNGs different guidelines with the one substance or different guidelines with similar substances?) rather than a pragmatic guide to what is likely to survive AfD, so we'll probably have to keep doing the silly exercise of dredging up press coverage for each station one-by-one, but thanks for trying NemesisAT. – Joe (talk) 06:03, 3 July 2022 (UTC) Train stations aren't geographic places. Masem (t) 13:50, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4, especially in light the debate in this discussion about what a train station actually is. If the topic can't be easily defined, then it seems a poor candidate for inherent notability. There is no conflict with WP:GAZETTEER here, as there are other ways to incorporate relevant information. CMD (talk) 07:20, 3 July 2022 (UTC) Given some of the responses regarding option 3, I would like to clarify that I have no issue with relevant information on train stations being merged/independently added to other relevant articles, which is a separate question to notability. CMD (talk) 04:05, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 GNG shouldn’t really be bypassed unless there is a SNG, and even then, GNG is still a good advisory. | Zippybonzo | Talk | 07:29, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 given the shaky definition of a train station, I don't think giving a blanket pass on notability is the way to go here. -- Asartea Talk | Contribs 08:17, 3 July 2022 (UTC) Option 2 provides for a clarification of that definition.Djflem (talk) 19:49, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

• Option 4- there is no such thing as inherent notability. For actual train stations this will almost always turn out to be a moot point, because for those the required sourcing will almost always exist. Then it will be an editorial decision as to whether the information is best handled as a stand-alone article or as part of a list of stations on its train line. What this will stop is people claiming automatic notability for all train stations and then using that to shovel in a bunch of stubs about disused sidings, flag stops, and branch points. Reyk YO! 08:19, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm not sure what to make of all the folks saying "Option 4" without engaging with the question of what a train station is. What exactly are you voting for? What outcome do you expect? If you're saying that you don't think streetcar stops are presumptively notable then I agree with you and so does existing consensus. If you're proposing a wave of deletions or merges of heavy rail stations then that might require some more thought and it's going to be disruptive. @Trainsandotherthings: I think you had good intentions, but drafting this RfC without explaining what a train station is will cause significant problems now and going forward. Mackensen (talk) 09:16, 3 July 2022 (UTC) Indeed. I don't see how the discussion above is any more confirmative than the 2019 RfC. NemesisAT (talk) 09:25, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• Malformed RfC. The RfC, as written, doesn't distinguish between types of stations, though WP:RAILOUTCOMES does. Read literally, Option 1 would suggest that flag stops and streetcar stops are inherently notable, and that's a minority view at best. I don't know if anyone would argue that. I suspect people arguing Option 1 above mean heavy rail and rapid transit stations--e.g., the existing practice documented at WP:RAILOUTCOMES. As NemesisAT notes, this RfC suffers from the exact problem mentioned in the close of the 2019 RfC: RFC recommended to more clearly define what constitutes a train station under this essay in order to better justify presumed notability in a future discussion. This wasn't done, and here we are again. Mackensen (talk) 09:32, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• I don't think it's fair to call this a "malformed RfC". It certainly could have been worded better, I don't dispute that, but I specifically linked to the 2019 RfC and mentioned the unresolved issues to bring them to the attention of all participants. Proposed option 2 also specifically addresses this, allowing for perhaps saying heavy rail stations are presumed notable, but tram stops that are little more than a sign and a tiny shelter are not. If a follow up RfC is necessary to clarify the precise definition of a train station, I would have no problem with that. And I'd be fine letting someone else start that RfC who has more experience writing them. But something had to be done to figure out this issue, because the status quo of endless arguments at every AfD wasn't working and was only breeding resentment. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 13:36, 3 July 2022 (UTC) This RfC is only going to create more arguments at AfD as we waste volunteer time trying to determine if thousands of railway station articles are "notable". Made all the more difficult as many of the sources will be offline and/or in other languages. NemesisAT (talk) 13:43, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4, as there are a lot of them, many little more than halts. Most serve towns, and thus are only really notable for that reason. And GNG covers ones that are notable, they will have received extensive press coverage over an extended period. What we are talking about is not major (or historical) rail terminals (for example) but local stations. Slatersteven (talk) 11:02, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. I'll grant that any passenger-carrying railway line should be notable, but the individual stations may only be worth a listing within the line's article. At a stretch, you might justify creating a redirect for some stations, so they can be individually categorized and }ed to. But if every station were notable, you could end up with ten separate articles, one for each of the upper and lower stations of the five cliff railways in the Isle of Man - which would be ridiculous.-- Verbarson  talkedits 12:28, 3 July 2022 (UTC) Are you therefore suggesting that some are inherently notable? If so wouldn't other choices (there are more than 4 than those offered) be better. Bt for the sake of this RfC: 2.Some subset of train stations are inherently notable (for instance, excluding flag stops). Djflem (talk) 13:42, 5 July 2022 (UTC) Some stations are notable. Paddington merits an article because it has been recorded and described and detailed in numerous secondary reliable sources. But no station is inherently notable. If all you can record about a station is 'line, station name, coordinates, adjacent stations, date opened (and closed, if it is)' then that's not an article, it's an entry on a list of stations in the article about the line. -- Verbarson  talkedits 20:28, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. To quote myself responding to comments above about coverage of the construction, opening, and closing of possibly every station conferring notability, The construction of a station is an event. If there's a lot of news about the construction of a station but, once it's built, it gains no significant attention because it's just one more place where people get onto and get off of trains, then perhaps it's sort of like saying a celebrity's child is notable for having been born because of plentiful write-ups about the celebrity's pregnancy, even if the child never got coverage in their own right thereafter. I might have gone with Option 2, proposing, for example, that train stations in major cities are inherently notable, but then that might devolve into a debate over what a "major city" is, whether minor cities or suburbs of major cities should be included, what places are or aren't genuinely suburbs, etc., so I've opted for 4. Largoplazo (talk) 12:46, 3 July 2022 (UTC) That's stretching WP:ROUTINE rather far, don't you think? WP:ROUTINE is meant to handle the routine reporting of sports matches and the like, which occur every week or even every day. Railway stations are not built at that frequency, nor on a regular schedule. Would you apply that logic to elections? How about highways? Do highways really generate coverage beyond that they were built, and that there are occasionally accidents and jams? Accidents are arguably routine. What's the limiting principle here? Mackensen (talk) 13:11, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. I'm not seeing any valid reasoning for bypassing GNG. "Stations" is far too broad a scope and option 2 doesn't come close to addressing that. Those that fail GNG can be included elsewhere, generally in the article about the place where they are located, with a redirect (similar to option 3, but claiming inherent, or even presumed, notability is a non-starter). wjematherplease leave a message... 13:46, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2, sort of, with caveats. I think that heavy rail and rapid transit stations with scheduled service are presumptively notable, in that they are fixed geographic features of long standing, and that their construction and operation are well attested in reliable sources and the subject of ongoing coverage. I think light rail/streetcar stops can be notable, depending on the character of the operation. Streetcar/tram stops and flag stops should probably be merged and often are. Mackensen (talk) 13:49, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. Just kind of silly that a structure simply by existing would be notable and skip past things like WP:GNG. 50.201.228.202 (talk) 14:28, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bakers, Kentucky and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Herrin, Nevada. There are large classes of historic stations that cannot be written about in any significant form, and I imagine that carries over to today. Hog Farm Talk 15:28, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Sometimes there is enough for more than one sentence, but not a lengthy article, but if all that is known is the location and when it opened and closed that could be included in a list of stations on the line. 82.132.186.147 (talk) 16:30, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Options 1-3 There is a backlog of more important tasks such as ensuring content is verifiable and NPOV; option 4 would divert resources away from that. 82.132.186.147 (talk) 16:30, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Your comment

• option 1 yes always train stations There are some things that are necessary to include to have a functional, general interest encyclopedia, and not all of those things pass WP:GNG. We make special inclusion criteria for that reason. Train stations 1) are highly verifiable with primary data 2) always have important information relevant to multiple GNG-passing Wikipedia articles about locations and infrastructure 3) will typically not pass GNG because that criteria has a bias for journalism and research, which train stations do not get. I support having some criteria, like confirming published primary data about the station. If stations do not have their own articles, then this content will too often be merged into city articles where it will be WP:UNDUE. This is a topic worthy of an exception to GNG and having special inclusion criteria. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:35, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• comment: the future is Wikidata d:Wikidata:WikiProject Railways Not so far in the distant future all train stations will be indexed in Wikidata, that data will be automatically translated into 100 languages, then that content will be ported out to every language Wikipedia version. For anyone really interested in this issue, Wikidata is the least effort highest impact way to getting this content sorted and stable for the long term. The Wikimedia Foundation is putting 10+ million dollars into this kind of thing every year and will do so perpetually - there will come a point when all that investment makes changes here in English Wikipedia. I am not sure how community should respond to this but things will not always be as they are now. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:42, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Our community here at WP.en has repeatedly rejected porting info from Wikidata into Wikipedia. I don’t see that changing soon. Both projects are worthwhile, but they are separate projects with separate goals… and should stay that way. Blueboar (talk) 17:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
  • A better place for all rail stations to be documented while still tied to Wikidata would be Wikivoyage. Those that are still notable via the GNG/NCORP can still exist on Wikipedia. Masem (t) 17:32, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
    • That is not what Wikivoyage is for, and NCORP is not relevant here, as stations are infrastructure, not organisations or products. 82.132.186.147 (talk) 18:09, 3 July 2022 (UTC) While they are often paid for via public funds, the management and construction is typically by a company - whether that's a private company or a gov't backed one, so we do have to watch for the self-promotion that happens with the corporate-type entity. The infrastructure as a whole (eg the whole of the NYC Subway or London Underground) is certainly notable within both GNG and NCORP, but individual parts like stations are likely not. Masem (t) 18:22, 3 July 2022 (UTC) I'm re-reading your comment and trying to parse whether or not you're saying that London Underground and New York Subway stations are non-notable. Before I engage, I'd appreciate it if you'd clarify your position. Mackensen (talk) 18:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC) I'm saying that its very likely the overall infrastructure piece that is rail system is likely notable, but individual elements are not automatically notable, so they have to show notability through the GNG with considerations of NCORP. There are certainly stations that clear that bar like NYC Grand Central and probably most of the Underground ones, but taking a smaller system like, say, the light rail system in Seattle, stations there are going to be tougher to show, though the overall system is notable. Masem (t) 18:33, 3 July 2022 (UTC) That's an aggressive position and I'm not sure that it's well-founded. Roughly half the Link light rail articles have reached GA status and two are FA. Mackensen (talk) 18:40, 3 July 2022 (UTC) I'm just using that as an example, just that stations can't be presumed notable just by mere existence, but can be shown notable via the GNG, and thus no need for a special SNG-like allowance. Masem (t) 18:43, 3 July 2022 (UTC) I think if 50% of the articles of a given set have been promoted to GA/FA, it's okay to talk about presumption of notability. Mackensen (talk) 19:16, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• • • individual parts like stations are likely not. - Perhaps you meant to say that individual parts like stations may not be notable. Yes, in most cases the system would most likely be notable. But this comment quite drastically underestimates the depth to which some heavy rail systems are discussed. About 20% of London Underground stations are GAs (with one current station and one former station being an FA), whereas 15% of NYC Subway stations are GAs. It's likely that all currently operating stations in both systems are notable, and, as someone involved in updating pages about NYC Subway stations, I can confirm this with certainty for the NYC Subway. The fact that a significant number of stations have enough sources to be improved to GA status, and even to FA status, means that such a generalization can't be made. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:28, 5 July 2022 (UTC) GA and FA assessments do not account for notability or encyclopedic merit for a standalone. Several FAs and numerous GAs have actually been deleted on notability grounds, with their content being covered in other articles. For example, a lot of GA/FAs go into significant detail on historical and background info using sources that don't mention the subject at all. JoelleJay (talk) 22:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC) In many cases, background information is necessary as articles do not exist in a walled garden. There certainly have been GAs and FAs that are not notable and have correctly been deleted. But if a topic really does meet the GA criteria or FA criteria, then it probably has enough coverage to be notable, in spite of the inclusion of background information. WP:GACR says that a good article stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail, while WP:FACR says that a featured article neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context ... it presents views fairly and without bias. Both of these criteria do account for background info. An article that's mostly background would fail both the GA and FA criteria.
      If a GA or FA is about a non-notable topic, the page ought to be demoted because it doesn't meet either the GA criteria or the FA criteria. However, even then, these topics are almost certainly a subset of something which very well is notable. The Lewis (baseball) article is a flagrant example of this, as is Doug Ring with the Australian cricket team in England in 1948, but in both cases they were merged into a parent article, not deleted. This is compatible with WP:NOPAGE, i.e. option 3 of this RFC. I'll quote what Thryduulf said below, since it's relevant to a discussion about railway station GAs/FAs: "There are literally only two reasons to delete rather than merge articles about non-notable stations: 1. a failure of WP:V, and 2. copyright violations." – Epicgenius (talk) 22:17, 5 July 2022 (UTC) I didn't say context/background info doesn't belong in articles, just that a lot of what contributes to an assessment doesn't take notability criteria into consideration. There can be GAs/FAs where there is only one source going into SIGCOV on the subject, with the rest of the sources going into the context. I'm also not advocating for deletion necessarily; like @Levivich said somewhere, I am advocating for the option to not have a standalone article; claims of inherent notability essentially remove that option and anything producing that outcome, including merges and redirects. I also disagree that there are only two reasons not to merge. If the content of a station stub is so limited as to merely state its existence, there's nothing worth merging. JoelleJay (talk) 22:44, 5 July 2022 (UTC) I see what you mean now. In regards to merging articles where only a limited amount of SIGCOV is available, I agree with that point. As for train station stubs, I'm still in favor of merging them, if only because they may become notable on their own in the future. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:23, 5 July 2022 (UTC) I certainly have no opposition to merging train station stubs where the content is nontrivial enough (as opposed to just verified existence, where all we'd be merging is stuff like the name and termini). JoelleJay (talk) 23:45, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• It's a tough one. I think that the spirit of "WP=gazetteer" covering some elements of public transportation infrastructure has some merit. It's about some subjects being inherently useful to the general public such that we can include them based on primary/non-independent sources because the only people who stand to gain from that information are the public... and that's not a bad thing. The question is where to draw that line and how it fits into Wikipedia. Some people made the same argument about secondary schools, which I never quite found persuasive, for example. That said, I've supported school district articles that cover those schools to some degree, and I support having larger group articles related to train stations without the need for each one to have its own article (and more importantly, without the need for each one to meet the GNG independently). The thing is, there's no option for people like me to support in this RfC. Like many others, I'm loath to support granting anything "inherent notability". On enwp in 2022, that term is going to poison any option of any proposal that includes it, and makes option 4 the default option. So how about Option 3.5: Certain types of train stations (to be defined in a subsequent discussion) are presumed notable, but should be covered in a parent article unless sources have been found to meet the GNG. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:14, 3 July 2022 (UTC) Your comment illustrates why I called the RfC malformed earlier. I have no idea what a closer would make of this discussion. Hopefully nothing, beyond that there needs to be an actual drafting discussion next time before people start voting and calling up various parades of horribles. Honestly, you'd think a train station attacked someone's family. Mackensen (talk) 18:43, 3 July 2022 (UTC) I think at a minimum there's at present some level of consensus that train stations shouldn't be given automatic notability. With that being said, many will easily meet GNG, and any train station that meets GNG should be under no risk of deletion or merger. If a follow up RfC is necessary to nail this down, so be it. Our end goal here should be to get some sort of consistent treatment of train station articles in writing somewhere. It may be messy but it needs to be done somehow. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:25, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3: All railway stations are guaranteed to have coverage, at the very least at the moment they are opened - not only in local media, but usually in national media and also in specialized railway / subway literature. This makes them notable. However, unfortunately, many articles are being created based only on the standard database information, which is not acceptable. These must be merged into lists.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:30, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
  • If they only received coverage when they were opened then they are not notable, per WP:SUSTAINED. BilledMammal (talk) 21:59, 3 July 2022 (UTC) WP:SUSTAINED is meant for events, not physical structures or geographic features, and you need to reconcile your position with WP:NOTTEMPORARY. Mackensen (talk) 22:02, 3 July 2022 (UTC) That's not what WP:SUSTAINED says. Brief bursts of news coverage may not sufficiently demonstrate notability. does not equal "then they are not notable". NemesisAT (talk) 22:04, 3 July 2022 (UTC) SUSTAINED is meant for topics generally, not just events. SUSTAINED is also compatible with NOTTEMPORARY; once a topic has received sustained coverage it is notable, even if it then stops receiving coverage. In the case of buildings that receive a brief burst of coverage for their opening event, it does equal not notable, particularly when considered in line with WP:NOTNEWS. BilledMammal (talk) 22:22, 3 July 2022 (UTC) Even if we say SUSTAINED does apply to buildings, may not sufficiently demonstrate notability is not the same as "not notable". "may" being the key word here. Generally as well there will coverage of planning and construction, as well as opening. This would most definitely satisfy SUSTAINED. NemesisAT (talk) 22:25, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 If many stations will have received significant coverage, it shouldn't be difficult to produce actual sources proving the fact. Although presumptions of notability are usually justified on grounds that significant coverage is likely to exist, everybody knows that 90% of the time they're merely used as an excuse for mass-voting "keep" in AfDs without providing sources. If stations can be shown to have received SIGCOV, they're notable, otherwise they're not; it doesn't need to be more complicated than that. Avilich (talk) 19:11, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 There is nothing in Wikipedia policies and guidelines that justifies the notion of "inherent notability". Topics are notable when they have received significant coverage in reliable sources. It is incumbent on anyone who wants to keep any given article to provide evidence of that coverage in the form of references to such sources. There is nothing about train stations that makes them fundamentally different from any other topic area. Cullen328 (talk) 19:43, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3 most train stations are notable in my view, particularly in the UK, but for the ones that aren't they can be merged into a line article Atlantic306 (talk) 19:54, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Ymb. We should have at least a redirect for every station. Fewer ways for redirects to disappear is a good thing. – SJ + 20:25, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 There is no automatic notability whatsoever. While it may not always be expected to have particularly in-depth sources about individual stations, this should be done on station-by-station or line-by-line basis. Merging or redirecting to a line should be the preference until there's a need for a separate page – tables and sections can provide many of the details without presuming the need for stubs. Reywas92Talk 21:04, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3. Every station that verifiably exists or existed is notable enough for, at least, a mention on the article about the system, line and/or route on which it is located and for a redirect to the most appropriate of those. While many, possible even most, stations are notable enough for a standalone article there are some that are not, but there is literally only two reasons to delete rather than merge articles about non-notable stations: 1. a failure of WP:V, and 2. copyright violations. Thryduulf (talk) 21:12, 3 July 2022 (UTC) Editors considering the notability of individual stations should be aware that the majority of sources about small-medium sized and/or rural stations, especially those in non-English speaking countries and/or which opened before circa the early 2000s are not online and/or not in English. This does not mean that there are no sources about them, it just means that Google doesn't know about, and thus cannot show you, these sources. If the articles about these stations are short then nominate them for merging rather than deletion unless you cannot even verify the station's existence. Note also that it is rare for similarly sized stations on the same line/system to be significantly more or less notable than each other, and so it makes little sense to treat them individually - discuss them as a set or explicitly explain what makes the individual station different from the similar ones. Thryduulf (talk) 21:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC) Editors considering the notability of individual stations should be aware that the majority of sources about small-medium sized and/or rural stations, especially those in non-English speaking countries and/or which opened before circa the early 2000s are not online and/or not in English. If I point this out, I'll just get someone saying "WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES" as a response NemesisAT (talk) 21:34, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3 or 4. Definitely not option 1. Even with option 3 I'd say only a sub-set, not all. Ideally to be there should be a subject-specific guidance document on train stations/railways. WP:RAILOUTCOMES alone isn't sufficient. -Kj cheetham (talk) 21:41, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3. My view of the matter is that it's important for us not to delete content about train stations without any good argument to do so - an argument which I haven't seen. However, if some enterprising editor finds it would be better for certain rail lines to have their station content merged partially or entirely onto the page for that line, and would do the work required, I think that would be quite nice. JuxtaposedJacob (talk) 03:29, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3. I think nigh-all train stations are encyclopedic topics, and that for less important ones they are best viewed by comparison to similar ones. J947 † edits 03:34, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Sorry but your rationale makes no sense to me. You don't think train stations need to meet GNG because they are encyclopedic topics? So GNG is for non-encyclopedic topics? Levivich[block] 06:14, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 for the same reasons others raised. There is no such thing as inherent notability. "Notability" is not some quality that things in the world possess (or don't possess). "Notable" means it meets the WP:N guideline. What hasn't been advanced is a reason why train stations should be an exception to that guideline such that they don't need to meet GNG. I can think of no reason why train stations shouldn't have to meet GNG like everything else. So option 4. Levivich[block] 06:12, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3 interpreted as inherently notable enough to have a few sentences describing the station in the article of the railway line it is on (of course complying with WP:V), including a redirect of the station's name to the respective section in the line article. Stand-alone articles are appropriate where WP:GNG is clearly met and there is enough encyclopedic stuff to write about a station. Nyamo Kurosawa (talk) 10:58, 4 July 2022 (UTC) Note: i have informed WikiProject Trains in Japan of this RfC. Nyamo Kurosawa (talk) 11:02, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4: I am thoroughly unimpressed by arguments about navigation -- Wikipedia is explicitly not a travel guide -- or how "consistent" or "easy" it is to keep an article, however threadbare its notability: by that standard, isn't it easier just to keep everything, like infinite substubs on soccer or cricket players? The premise that all train stations could pass the GNG is an airy argument free of the slightest degree of evidence, and indeed, Thryduulf's analysis refutes the notion. If a station can meet the GNG, prove it. If it can't, merge to the railroad or the line until such time as such evidence is presented. Ravenswing 12:09, 4 July 2022 (UTC) You're misinterpreting "not a travel guide". WP:NOTGUIDE prohibits phone numbers, prices, and biased selections of restaurants, attractions, etc. It certainly does not exclude articles on railway stations. NemesisAT (talk) 12:48, 4 July 2022 (UTC) We are none of us fools, and we are entirely capable of deciding that a policy doesn't need to explicitly set out the words "railway stations" to apply to railway stations. For pity's sake, it doesn't set out the words "ice cream stands," "sidewalk vendors," "walking tours" or "harbor cruises" either. Ravenswing 20:13, 4 July 2022 (UTC) Railway stations are hardly comparable to walking tours or harbour cruises. They are essential infrastructure that people rely upon to get about. Your suggestion that having articles on railway stations constitutes a "travel guide" is ridiculous. You are completely manipulating what WP:NOTGUIDE says to try to justify deleting railway station articles. NemesisAT (talk) 21:54, 4 July 2022 (UTC) Bus stops are also "essential infrastructure that people rely upon to get about". Do you believe that all bus stops are notable? -Indy beetle (talk) 08:20, 8 July 2022 (UTC) The point I was making wasn't about notability, it was about the application of NOTGUIDE. So no. NemesisAT (talk) 10:37, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. It is very clear that consensus is to keep railway stations. Not tram stops with no platforms. Not stations that were proposed but never built. But actual constructed heavy or light rail stations with platforms and infrastructure. There are very good reasons for this. They are major features of infrastructure and there are invariably sources to be found about them, although those sources may not be online or in English. Those who oppose this are very keen on pointing out that there is no written policy or guideline that specifically covers railway stations, but they omit to notice that WP:CONSENSUS is a policy and that consensus at AfD is clearly to keep railway stations and has been since the early years of Wikipedia. Yes, consensus may change, but there is no evidence that it has changed here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:57, 4 July 2022 (UTC) Really? I'm seeing twice as many editors advocating Option 4 than all other options combined. That suggests that consensus has very clearly changed. Ravenswing 20:13, 4 July 2022 (UTC) I meant, as I assumed would be obvious, in AfDs! Where consensus is frequently made. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:20, 5 July 2022 (UTC) Heh. I've been a frequent flyer at AfD. AfDs are commonly settled by four or five loudmouths -- often buzzing around a half dozen AfDs of the day in a minute or two -- kneejerk "Seems notable" or "No sources in the article" (devoid of actual examination) are common responses, and an AfD involving as many as a dozen editors is almost always the result of a clique or faction defending "their" turf. The concept that there would be any broad policy consensus from AfD -- let alone it being "obvious" -- is something of a gigglefit ... especially given that proposed deletions aren't supposed to determine notability standards, but whether or not the articles in question meet the standards already in place. With that being said, whatever "consensus" you believe to have been established at AfD are irrelevant in the face of a broad RfC, focused on the general question instead of the merits of individual articles, and with participation from over three dozen editors at this point. Ravenswing 11:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. If we don't have the sources to write individually about a station, we shouldn't just make a database dump. It can be a line in an article about the train line, and a redirect to that article, but it shouldn't be an individual article unless there exists in-depth sourceable content that we can use for an article about that station, which is all that would be required for individual notability. "Because we've always done it that way" is a bad reason for other outcomes. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:28, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
  • PS just for the sake of example where I am somewhat familiar with the place: we do not currently have an article about the former train station ("Wendling") that existed at Navarro, California, and I strongly suspect that any relevant content about it can adequately be supported at the Navarro article without creating a new standalone article for it. —David Eppstein (talk) 11:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC) Yes, I think it's deeply regrettable that the RfC, among other things, made no distinction between current stations and former stations. Mackensen (talk) 12:06, 5 July 2022 (UTC) There appears to be disagreement over where to merge railway station articles to. Settlement pages, company pages, railway line pages have all been suggested. We risk making content harder to find by not having a consistent merge target. NemesisAT (talk) 12:11, 5 July 2022 (UTC) I don't see why there should be a distinction between current stations and former stations. This is an encyclopedia, not this month's timetable. If it really was once notable, then it should continue to be notable. To say the same thing in another way, if it is not notable now, then maybe it never really was notable. Perhaps the advocates of all current stations being automatically notable should think whether some of those stations, if they closed next year for whatever reason, would really still be notable 100 years from now. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:34, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. WP:NOTDIRECTORY, WP:NOTGUIDE - are we going to start creating more standalone articles for ferry transport locations, bus depots, trucking yards, and the like? We already have Lists of airports which is WP:NOTCATALOG, and probably falls under non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations. We have Bus station, and lists for them. See Category:Public transport and tell me how the forked articles are notable. much less encyclopedic, and not simply magnets for UPE. Would we have added this type of information in a buried time capsule? I doubt it, because if it's going to be buried, few will write about train stations, except for the few notable ones that made headlines because of a bombing, etc. j/s Atsme 💬 📧 15:50, 4 July 2022 (UTC) If you're proposing to delete airports, bus stations, ferry terminals, and perhaps unimportant cities then more WikiProjects should be notified. This feels like the French Revolution. Mackensen (talk) 17:54, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

• Oh, goodness no, Mackensen, I am not proposing a vast deletion. I believe we should exercise good judgment in an effort to remain compliant with policy. I would think the bulk of those stations would pass per WP:NBUILD. Perhaps the time has come for us to replace some of the guideline terminology, and let "significant coverage" become "sufficient coverage". WP:Notability (geographic features) does not support inherent notability, but does support notability per the following: Buildings, including private residences, transportation facilities and commercial developments, may be notable as a result of their historic, social, economic, or architectural importance, but they require significant in-depth coverage by reliable, third-party sources to establish notability. Atsme 💬 📧 02:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

• Option 2 The point of inherent/presumptive notability guidelines is to avoid having the same arguments over and over about topics where the vast majority of articles in a certain category are or aren't notable. In theory, this means removing those guidelines and falling back to GNG won't change any outcomes. In practice, this means a lot of discussions where editors will try to argue for why an entire list of sources doesn't count for notability for one reason or another because they don't like having lots of articles on a given topic. (You can already see that happening up the thread, with the argument that because news sources typically write about new rail stations, that somehow makes that coverage routine.) As for whether certain categories of railway stations almost always meet GNG, I think it's instructive to look at Rail bridges, tunnels, and stations|the list of GAs about rail stations; it's a long list of stations, most of which aren't major transport hubs, across many different countries and networks. Unless you're going to make the argument that a large number of GAs aren't notable (which would be an argument for greatly diminishing Wikipedia in my book), you have to at least consider the possibility that there are a lot of stations on the same train systems with similar levels of coverage. TheCatalyst31 Reaction•Creation 02:01, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2/4. WP:GEOFEAT already provides sufficient clarity for the inherent notability of various sorts of articificial geographical features (including buildings, structures, transport hubs, artificial features related to infrastructure, etc.). The guideline currently provides a presumption of notability for articifial geographic features that meet national heritage or cultural heritage statuses, but aside from this, buildings, including private residences, transportation facilities and commercial developments, may be notable as a result of their historic, social, economic, or architectural importance, but they require significant in-depth coverage by reliable, third-party sources to establish notability (emphasis added). It also does not presume notability for artificial features related to infrastrcuture, instead saying that can be notable under Wikipedia's GNG. The guidance in WP:GEOFEAT that the inclusion of a man-made geographical feature on maps or in directories is insufficient to establish topic notability is wise and it already applies to train stations as they are artificial geographical features.

• Option 1 per WP:GAZETTEER Benjamin (talk) 07:59, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

• 2/3 Without a clear defintion of of "train station" with which to conduct a proper appraisal (and which was not followed up in previous AfC cited): existing/many historical heavy rail: (mainline/intercity/commuter) and many mass transit (metro/subway) stations are justified in having own articles (thus inherently notable). Light rail (tram/trolly) less so and are perhaps better inlcuded (merged with pertinent info: opening date, etc) in lists in articles about the line or separate "List of stations of the X line". Djflem (talk) 08:57, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 In New Zealand (the only country whose rail history I know much of), the majority of rail routes are short-living mining and logging routes from the colonial era without obvious physical marker or debris surviving into this century. The notion that we should automatically have an article for each end of them seems preposterous. Possibly we should have an article for the mine or sawmill, but only if there are sources. Stuartyeates (talk) 10:27, 5 July 2022 (UTC) I don't think anyone is arguing for automatic notability of closed freight only stations. NemesisAT (talk) 12:07, 5 July 2022 (UTC) When someone claims "all stations are (inherently/presumed) notable" (or equivalent), as has happened frequently at AFD and here (e.g. any !vote for option 1, including your own, and Necrothesp's endless repetition of this sentiment), that is precisely what they are doing. wjematherplease leave a message... 12:25, 5 July 2022 (UTC) Your comment demonstrates how the RfC set up an unreasonable strawman. Given that, I'm not sure how useful it is in the long run. Once you get past a general agreement that "all stations" (whatever that means, the RfC doesn't say) aren't inherently notable, opinion fragments considerably. Mackensen (talk) 12:30, 5 July 2022 (UTC) Those agreeing "that all stations aren't inherently notable" are not (or at least shouldn't be) supporting option 1. wjematherplease leave a message... 13:30, 5 July 2022 (UTC) The status quo generally sees heavy rail and metro stations kept but not tram stops and generally not unverifiable historic stations either. Some of the responses here (like Stuartyeates's) seem to assume that we have been keeping every single stop of any sort no matter the system. NemesisAT (talk) 12:30, 5 July 2022 (UTC) Wouldn't 2.Some subset of train stations are inherently notable (for instance, excluding flag stops) satisfy that concern? Djflem (talk) 13:34, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 I don’t see why train stations should have a special carve out for the notability requirements we apply to everything else. Having more specific guidelines on these kind of things would be good as I know from the Railways Africa AfD that it is hard to apply policy when it comes to traincruft. Vladimir.copic (talk) 12:13, 5 July 2022 (UTC) I don't think using words like traincruft is appropriate nor helpful here. There is evidently many people interested in writing and reading railway articles. You don't need to be mocking. NemesisAT (talk) 12:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2 or maybe 3. I believe the vast majority of train stations, with the exception of some flag stops and the like, are notable. I've seen some mentions above of WP:NOTGUIDE above (which isn't really applicable to train stations, but whatever) so I feel it is important to also point out WP:NOTPAPER -- "there is no practical limit to the number of topics Wikipedia can cover." While this isn't a free pass for inclusion, it certainly points that way in this case. -- Vaulter 14:09, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 Agree with above that everything in a category of functional structures don't get a pass to a stand-alone page, and the idea of such 'inherent notability' makes no sense (whether stations, office buildings, warehouses, or homes, etc). When the GNG is satisfied, consider a separate page but readers are regularly better served by in context SUMMARY, MERGE and PAGEDECIDE - the idea that you must have a separate page to write or find out about something in Wikipedia is just untrue, surely better articles is the real aim of this work, not more articles. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:41, 5 July 2022 (UTC) This phrase "some subset are inherently notable" seems quite confused: the stations that are "inherently" notable are the ones that pass the GNG. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:39, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 Articles are written with sources. An article made up of a single paragraph with two citations proving the station exists doesn't do much for an encyclopedia; such a stub exists only for the rail fans. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:28, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• 2/3. Some subset of train stations are inherently notable, but may still be merged into other articles, a la WP:NOPAGE. Fictional train stations are not inherently notable and closed stations probably aren't either. I suppose a followup RfC may be needed to establish the criteria for the subset of inherently notable stations. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3. As a railfan myself, I don't necessarily think railway stations should be exempt from GNG, especially for light rail modes and flag stops. On the other hand, many heavy rail stations (at least those with physical infrastructure), including subway stations, have enough sources to meet GNG because their construction and development is covered by local media. I'm not saying that all such stations meet this criterion; indeed, some short station pages can be merged into the articles about the lines per NOPAGE.
  However, and this is a big consideration, many stations are constructed as part of a longer segment of a line, particularly in rapid transit systems. For example, all 23 stations of Line 9 (Chongqing Rail Transit) opened at the same time. If we only used GNG as a consideration, some topics might be swept under the rug when we do a typical search of sources. When talking about the construction of a line segment, some sources may only talk about the endpoints of that segment. For instance, this source talking about the opening of Chongqing Rail Transit's line 9 mentions that the line has opened between Gaotanyan Station and Xingke Avenue Station, but it does not mention intermediate stations which opened at the same time. Even though these stations clearly opened at the same time, someone might only be able to use this reference to support the notability of the termini, rather than those intermediate stations. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:12, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. That being said, I would hazard a guess that 99.99% of train stations are within legally recognized, populated places, which are notable per WP:GEOLAND. Therefore, if a station is not notable per GNG, the article can (per WP:NNC) and should be merged into the relevant GEOLAND article (or another more suitable destination, such as an article on the train line itself). HouseBlastertalk 23:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 makes most sense to me. Wikidata should be the repository, not here. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:45, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2 probably does the least harm to the project, which should be the goal with any change or clarification of policy. We should have freestanding articles on the kinds of stations that longstanding consensus has supported having freestanding articles on (as demonstrated by their widespread presence on the wiki), which would at least encommpass permanent stations with station infrastructure and regular passenger service on "heavy rail" (non-tram) lines. Policies should reflect practice, in part, because the consensus represented by wiki editing practice is far broader than any RFC's participation. (As a side note, Option 3 and Option 4 are, as far as I can tell, the same thing, since notability is about whether encyclopedic information should be presented in a standalone article, not whether it should exist at all.) -- Visviva (talk) 04:28, 6 July 2022 (UTC) But when policies reflect practice, that should be practice established across all of WP, and from what apparent here, the question of notability of train stations has previously only been limited to a small group of editors and thus has not been tested at a large-scale discussion. There are lots of small wikiprojects that have walled gardens when it comes to notability that we have had to tear down, and this seems like such a case that at least some review of what railfans have done in the past have done. Masem (t) 04:31, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4: it's not just flag stops, but many passenger stations that are not best suited to standalone articles that will forever be tagged with unactionable } (as the nearest station to where I type this has), or filled with unverifiable local knowledge about whether there is level access, if/when it is staffed and how often trains come. I think every passenger line is notable, so coverage of the major, verifiable facts about the train station can be covered in Wikipedia, and we might even say for simplicity that every train station on more than one line is notable so there are no concerns about splitting information among different pages. 5P1 does set out that we have many features of a gazetteer, but 5P2 sets out that we "strive for verifiable accuracy". Many standalone small station articles can only be filled with unverifiable local knowledge that, while useful to people looking for that, is not within Wikipedia's scope. — Bilorv (talk) 19:32, 6 July 2022 (UTC) At least for British stations this information is not unverifiable I regularly add updates on the installation of accessible bridges to British station articles, for example. NemesisAT (talk) 21:14, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1/2 depending what subset 2 includes. Physical stops on heavy rail routes that receive scheduled service from passenger trains are notable. Removing flag stops may seem tempting but is not worthwhile. In GB, about 150 of 2500 stations are currently request stops; it seems more sensible to allow a complete set of articles than to purge them down to 94%. Certes (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 should be the standard for current and active rail stations. Former stations should be a case-by-case basis. Cards84664 14:45, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. Option 1 is absurd, and 2 and 3 are subsets of that absurdity. I don't see any logical reasons why train stations are these magically notable places. The use of "inherent" is also poor choice of words, presidents of countries technically don't even get "inherent" notability. The current Notability guideline even says No subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists. Hundreds of stations in history (I'm thinking US in 1800s) have also been nothing more than a wooden platform and an agent on duty for several hours a week—why not make all bus stops and fast food joints notable for that matter? Use GNG, that means sources are provided which can actually be used to write an article. If you can't be bothered to find enough sources to write an article, move on and write something else. -Indy beetle (talk) 08:11, 8 July 2022 (UTC) See Wikipedia:NPOL, which clarifies your claim, which actually does give certain politicians inherent/presumed notability. See Wikipedia:GEOLAND, which gives incorporated places (in the USA) inherent/presumed notability. In other words, inherent/presumed notability does exist on Wikipedia. Djflem (talk) 21:52, 9 July 2022 (UTC) You conflated "inherent" and "presumed" notability in your statement, thus making your statemenyt not meaningful. North8000 (talk) 00:32, 10 July 2022 (UTC) You need to better understood how the two guidelines work. You can quibble about wording if it's youR thing, but it boils down to the same thing: "automatic inclusion" (a actually, a free pass). No matter what semantic story you'd like spin, that's a fact. Djflem (talk) 08:27, 10 July 2022 (UTC) Yes, as North says, these are not the same thing. "Presumed" suggests that by default we consider a subject notable, as we presume sources existence without confirming it beforehand. "Inherent" in this case would mean that train stations, by virtue of being stations for trains, are magically notable. Option 1 would mean that we would have to change the statement on the WP:Notability guideline page to read No subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists, except train stations. That's pretty dumb. The poor wording aside, the substance of my argument I think still stands as many train stations totally lack SIGCOV. For example, I wrote on article the small village/community of Moss Neck, North Carolina. It is a single paragraph long but meets GEOLAND under our gazetteer functions. Everything you see in that article includes almost everything I found about the train station in the community, since it was centered around the station for most of its early history (and it wasn't just a flag stop, they sold tickets there and refilled the train's water). Does it look like the station is worthy of it's own notability independent of the community? The traffic/"importance" arguments are also dumb to apply to thousands of potential stations, as there are indivudal fast food joints in my city that get more traffic on daily basis than most train stations in my region get in a week. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:34, 10 July 2022 (UTC) Actually I did not conflate anything more than is done on Wikipedia. The the question in this this RfC is misconstrued and should be about how Wikipedia handles certain subjects. "Presumed" notability on the two guidelines noted does grant "inherent' notable in that they establishe a parameters for "automatic inclusion" in the encyclopaedia. Option 2 of this malformed RfC offers that as a possibility. The question is to determine which subset of trains stations are granted that status (presumed>therefore notable>inclusion as defined by Wikipedia). Djflem (talk) 08:22, 10 July 2022 (UTC) Why not grant notability the ones which have enough sources so they meet GNG? Why is it such a chore to require editors to put a in a bare minimum of finding sources with which a decent article can actually be written? -Indy beetle (talk) 05:50, 13 July 2022 (UTC) Because we don't grant notability. Notability hails from subjects receiving significant coverage in reliable sources. If they don't, they're not notable. It's as simple as that.Tvx1 15:45, 13 July 2022 (UTC) That is my position, if I wasn't clear, I was using the language of those who disagree with me to frame my position. -Indy beetle (talk) 19:26, 13 July 2022 (UTC) Yet Wikipedia:NPOL and Wikipedia:GEOLAND allow for "automatic inclusion" of subsets that automatically fulfil Wikipedia notability (whether assumed, presumed, granted, given, allowed, or whatever). The way it is. Djflem (talk) 20:35, 13 July 2022 (UTC) Well, I dislike NPOL for what it's worth. You're also missing the other, more important part of my argument, which is that "automatic inclusion" of all train stations would lead to the creation of hundreds of one or two sentence permastubs with no basis in SIGCOV of the subjects. Trying to then apply automatic inclusion to a subset of train stations yet to be defined would be more of a waste of time than simply requiring that such stations simply meet GNG, with less risk of permastubs. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:45, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. While busy commuter or long-distance passenger stations are easily notable, there are all sorts of edge cases that would complicate a blanket rule. Are stops on an airport shuttle train notable stations? Tram stops? Are freight terminals stations? Disused or mothballed stations, or those under (possibly paused) construction? Tiny halts in unpopulated areas (e.g. [2])? Do we really think every red link in dozens of list articles (e.g. List of railway stations in Eritrea) merits a full article of its own? While consistency would be good, I don't see any way to write a concise threshold to decide exactly which stations are notable and which aren't. Better to just follow the GNG. Modest Genius talk 11:16, 8 July 2022 (UTC) Option 2 allows for clarification/definition of which types of stations would be covered. Djflem (talk) 21:53, 9 July 2022 (UTC) Sure, but no such definition was suggested. The edge case issues mean I doubt any would be satisfactory to the majority of commenters here. Modest Genius talk 15:57, 11 July 2022 (UTC) That is why is this AFC is not properly worded. A suggested definition of a subset has been extant heavy rail stations. Another has been existing heavy rail (intercity and commuter) stations and mass transit stations Djflem (talk) 06:27, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. The way we determine "Is something notable?" is the same way we determine everything else in an article—check the sources. Nothing is "inherently" notable; reliable and independent sources will tell us what is and is not by either writing extensively about a subject, or, well, not doing that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. If the stations do not meet the notability criteria as an article, you can always redirect (with possibility) to a section at the locale's page. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:46, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. As apparently already established in a previous RFC. So why wasn’t that applied??I don’t understand this is even a cause of dispute. Always follow WP:GNG. We don’t decide what’s notable. Sources do.Tvx1 09:04, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 per David Eppstein above. Ajpolino (talk) 21:18, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
• Options 1/2 As someone said as long as "inherently notable" is changed to "presumed notable" to allow for a few exceptions. It doesn't help out readers to have inconsistencies in the way this information is presented. G-13114 (talk) 21:22, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 - Multiple reasons. Firstly it's impossible for mainline rail stations to be built without extensive government reports, surveys and analysis. Secondly, WP:CONSENSUS, which trumps all other "rules" on WP, has long held that stations are inherently notable. I don't see a limited consensus by an RfC at for a few days in July, 2022 superseding the long standing consensus. But most importantly, volunteer editors are the most valuable resource this project has and have much better use of their time in creating new articles and improving existing ones. If editors suddenly have to constantly turn their attention debating the "notability" of the tens of thousands of articles on train stations then the the process of the much needed improving of articles by those editors will be hindered greatly. The consensus train (no pun intended) left the station almost twenty years ago. We need to move on to focus on making articles better, not get bogged down on further busywork and time-consuming acrimonious debates that were totally avoidable. Oakshade (talk) 02:53, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

• Option 2/4 I could see a case for defining a subset as "presumed" notable (not inherently), but absent of an agreement on the this theoritical subset, default is that a station must meet GNG. There is no good reason for a special policy for train stations. MB 03:44, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. The entire point of the GNG is that we need that bare minimum of sourcing to write a meaningful article; no matter how strongly people feel about train stations, if there aren't two independent sources giving it significant coverage, then there's not going to be enough verifiable information to write an independent article. Stations that fail to reach that threshold can be covered in some larger article about eg. transportation in that region instead. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 but I could live with option 3 as an alternative, if the guideline states something like "While railway stations are presumed to be notable, in the absence of coverage in independent sourcing, it is encouraged that it be merged into a more suitable list article". Anarchyte (talk) 12:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 per Anarchyte and WP:NOPAGE. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 20:58, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
• Options 2 or 3 are my preferences per many arguments that have already been put forth. Thank you. Huggums537 (talk) 23:28, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4 and extend to all Geographical locations - Wikipedia is not a database. Wikipedia is not a dictionary (even of the geographical sort). Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information or a bunch of lists (even when they are written together in a book).
  

• Option 4. I don't think that "train station" is a sufficiently material or granular characteristic to presume notability or to grant inherent notability. Unless some more convincing and detailed criteria are worked out, it's better to do it on a case-by-case basis via GNG and PAGEDECIDE. JBchrch talk 15:08, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
• Malformed RfC "Train station" is ill-defined, per Mackensen; when the articles to which the judgment might apply are unspecified, what's the point? This should have started with a breakdown of the different types of things called train stations, which ones are most likely to have what kind of documentation about them, and whether it makes more sense to cover them individually or as part of groupings. In other words, the guideline speculated about in option 4 should have been written first. I find much to sympathise with in Rhododendrites' comment, and I agree that there's no option for people like me to support in this RfC. XOR'easter (talk) 20:44, 17 July 2022 (UTC) If you think there is the possibility of some subset of train stations being "inherently notable", you can choose option 2. If option 2 gains consensus there can be a second RfC to determine which subset is inherently notable. But the purpose of the current RfC is to gauge whether editors believe there could be any subset of train stations with inherent notability, and the answer to that seems to be a resounding NO. JoelleJay (talk) 23:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC) I'm not going to sign on to any answer when my point is that the question should have been asked better in the first place. XOR'easter (talk) 14:56, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 4. If there is not enough source text to write an article about a subject, then don't. --Jayron32 11:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Since 31 March 2019 there have been 30 AfDs about 68 individual rail transport stations recorded at Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Article alerts and archives 4-7 (there were bulk nominations of 13 and 27 articles). There were an additional 15 AfDs about individual rail transport stations recorded at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Transportation/archive but not in the article alerts archives (no bulk nominations, but 1 station was later included in the larger of the two bulk nominations). Where it was clear from the nomination, all were about heavy rail or metro stations. The outcomes were as follows:

Additionally I found one nomination of an individual tram stop, this was merged to the article about the railway station of the same name 200 metres away. So in the last 3¼ years only 1 article about a railway station that verifiably exists or existed has been deleted at AfD and that lacked a suitable merge target. There is no other equivalent log I found. I tried searching the AfD log for "railway station" and "tram stop" but the first four and three pages of results respectively didn't find any additional AfDs from the relevant time period. Thryduulf (talk) 11:15, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Following on from various AFDs and other discussions in recent years (e.g., this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, and this one), it can be seen that there is a difference as to whether, and to what degree, rural localities such as Iranian ābādī, Turkish Mahalle, and similar unincorporated communities/localities having people live in/about them should be presumed notable.

At AFD it is typically to see, on the one hand, people pointing out that we have many mass-produced stub-articles for locations for which the only source is a bare-mention in a statistical database or in a long list of place-names, and this being a violation of WP:NOT. On the other hand, you typically see people expressing the view that as well as being an encyclopaedia Wikipedia should be a gazetteer and should therefore include all such localities for which there is a source regardless of the depth of coverage.

Both sides appeal to WP:GEOLAND#1 as supporting their point of view, typically based on very different interpretations of the meaning of "populated, legally recognized places" and "census tracts". The WP:GEOLAND guide is therefore not resolving the issue. The availability of redirection per WP:NOPAGE also does not seem to resolve the issue.

It is therefore sensible to test the community consensus on this. I foresee four possible outcomes:

FOARP (talk) 15:15, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

• Option 4. Mere mentions in documents, even government ones such as the Iranian census, has proved a very poor predictor of notability, particularly given the way in which different government functions and how rural locations are often just used as a reference points when counting people (cf. the large number of Iranian "village" articles we have that are actually the names of pumps, stores, houses, farms, factories etc. around which the 2006 census was taken). In contrast the conferring of a degree of self-administration on a community does fairly reliably mean the existence of significant coverage sufficient to pass WP:GNG somewhere, so Option 3 as a second choice. Preference is Option 4 as I don't like the idea of relying on local law to decide notability as this can differ significantly from country to country and is likely to result in misunderstandings - the entire concept of "legal recognition" comes from a western-centric view of how communities are organised that can break down when you try to apply it outside Europe and North America. FOARP (talk) 15:15, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
• Bad RfC Was there even a need for an RfC yet? I'm not even sure where the conflict is. I mean, this is not exactly rocket science: if it fails WP:GEOLAND, then defer to WP:GNG. If it passes GEOLAND, then it is probably notable, but it is not a 100% guarantee. That's standard operating procedure for nearly every SNG. I know it wasn't your intention, and don't take offense to this, but this comes across very much as you wanting to force through your preferred take on GEOLAND, especially considering the premature inclusion to WP:CENT and some of the prior discussions you linked. Curbon7 (talk) 15:44, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

• Bad RFC/Option 3 To the degree that WP:NGEO needs clarification, which I have doubts, WP:5P reminds us that this project also serves as a Gazetteer. Gazetteers "typically contains information concerning the geographical makeup, social statistics and physical features of a country, region, or continent." My preferred wording of option 3 would be something like "populated, self-governing, legally recognized place or a populated settlement recognized by archeologists or anthropologists." --Enos733 (talk) 15:54, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
• Thanks for working on this, but bad RFC First this should be formatted as a potential tweak on GEOLAND, not a top level statement on wp:notability. Next, probably the most needed GEOLAND tweak isn't listed. Which is to add a requirement to the other SNG requirements that to get in under the SNG, the entity be considered a main "place" identity for them. For example if they are in a hamlet that is a county, their hamlet and county meet that new requirement. If they also in some additional more abstract legally recognized areas (a library district, a park district, an irrigation district, a census disrict) those do not meet that extra test and thus would need GNG to get in. North8000 (talk) 16:09, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
• @North8000, Enos733, and Novem Linguae: - OK folks happy to withdraw if no-one wants to discuss this. I will say, though, that the repeated conflict at AFD over what "legal recognition" actually means is inevitably going to be decided on at some point in the future. FOARP (talk) 16:16, 26 July 2022 (UTC)