Talk:Nicholas II

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved - whilst numerically this is a wash, the move !voters have a firm basis in their arguments based in WP:NCROY and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. That Nicholas II already redirects here, and has for a long time without major controversy, was a very strong argument that this page is the primary topic.

Oppose !voters failed to counter this sufficiently. A number of them pointed to the existence of other Nicholas II's but it was taken as read in their arguments that the mere existence of other notable Nicholas II's was sufficient to block the move without regard to whether this Nicholas II was the primary topic. What was needed was a showing that Nicholas II was not the primary topic but instead e.g., Pope Nicholas II was (or nobody was), or otherwise a reason why we should ignore WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in this case. Even an WP:IAR argument needs a reason to WP:IAR to be given. None was forthcoming.

Other oppose !voters based their arguments on consistency. However, consensus can change and it clearly did change as a result of the discussion about WP:NCROY. Consistency cannot be used as a reason to prevent changes that will necessarily have to be done one-by-one.

This close takes note of the recent move review regarding Ferdinand VI which is a similar case to this. Just as was said in that move review, nothing here precludes a new RM discussion if WP:NCROY again changes. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 22:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nicholas II of Russia → Nicholas II – WP:SOVEREIGN says we should only use a territorial designation (e.g. country) when disambiguation is needed. I do not think there is any dispute that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Nicholas II; it has been a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT since 2007. Opening an RM because there was a previous RM for this page (which took place before the recent RfC at NCROY endorsing shorter titles). HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 23:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Russia has been notified of this discussion. Векочел (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] Note: WikiProject Soviet Union has been notified of this discussion. Векочел (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] Note: WikiProject Finland has been notified of this discussion. Векочел (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Векочел (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom. estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:34, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support in line with policies and guidelines cited by nom. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:24, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nominator. EmilySarah99 (talk) 08:59, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Disambiguation needed with Pope Nicholas II. Dimadick (talk) 09:37, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] There are numerous other Nicholas IIs – but the point is that this one is the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and should thus have its disambiguating "of Russia" removed, in line with WP:SOVEREIGN and WP:CONCISE. Rosbif73 (talk) 09:44, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose. Too many Nicolas II's. Doesn't meet criteria. Russia does not have primacy over other countries. Not an improvement, not helpful to readers. Walrasiad (talk) 11:03, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, per common name, primary topic, and long-term significance. I'd agree with the oppose views if Nicholas II didn't redirect here, but it does (and should). Randy Kryn (talk) 12:27, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] And Einstein redirects to "Albert Einstein". Should that be renamed too? Walrasiad (talk) 12:32, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] If the name was "Albert Einstein of Germany", yes, although Bob Einstein and others (including Albert's influential first wife) share the name as well. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:55, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] Bizarre non-sequitur. You said you'd oppose if the shortened form did not redirect here. But shortened forms often redirect to articles with longer names. Einstein was just an example. Walrasiad (talk) 15:02, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] Yet the shortened form, Nicholas II, does direct here and not to the disamb page, and has without controversy since mid-2007, so in this case brevity of title does merit consideration and attention. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:42, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] And the shortened from Einstein directs to "Albert Einstein", and not to a disambiguation page. Also without controversy. By your logic that article title should also be abbreviated then? Walrasiad (talk) 16:13, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] No. WP:SINGLENAME tells us Using the last name as the page title for a person, when the first name is also known and used, is discouraged, even if that name would be unambiguous, and even if it consists of more than one word. Unambiguous last names are usually redirects: for example, Ludwig van Beethoven is the title of an article, while Van Beethoven and Beethoven redirect to that article. In the case at hand, the applicable guideline is WP:NCROY, and specifically point 3 which tells us not to use "of country" when the shorter form is either unambiguous (not the case here) or is the primary meaning (which is the case here). Rosbif73 (talk) 16:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] In what way is "Nicholas II" his common name? How often do you see him referred to by that name out of context? It's almost always "Tsar Nicholas II". And it's people who are reading a name out of context that we should be thinking of, not people who already have an encyclopedic knowledge of Russian history. Deb (talk) 09:55, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per WP:SOVEREIGN. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:28, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak oppose due to many other articles with the same name, most particularly Pope Nicholas II. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:50, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• @Allan Rice, Deb, GoodDay, Dimadick, and Interstellarity: Courtesy ping to participants in previous RM. Srnec (talk) 00:12, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allan Rice is blocked as a sockpuppet. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've given up on these "of country"-RMs. There's no hope of ever getting these page names back to consistency. GoodDay (talk) 00:47, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] I'm afraid people are hidebound by the "COMMONNAME" mantra (sorry about the mixed metaphor) and hold a mistaken belief that this is a hard and fast rule, rather than a guideline written by fallible human beings. But if you don't give your opinion, they won't begin to understand. Deb (talk) 09:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] The closure decision to move Ferdinand VI of Spain & Ferdinand VII of Spain to Ferdinand VI & Ferdinand VII, was the back breaker for me. When such a large majority (8–3) of editors are ignored (per the update WP:NCROY)? you know the damage is done. GoodDay (talk) 15:54, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. There is no reason to have Alexander III of Russia succeeded by Nicholas II as if something changed. As has been pointed out, we routinely go beyond the minimum in article titles of people. Einstein, Bohr, Fermi, Oprah, Obama, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini, Reagan, Pasolini, Hitchcock... The list of such PRIMARYREDIRECTs is long. Just as their would be no gain from dropping "Barack" or "Adolf", there is no gain from dropping "of Russia". Srnec (talk) 00:12, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As noted above, the key difference is WP:SINGLENAME: Using the last name as the page title for a person, when the first name is also known and used, is discouraged, even if that name would be unambiguous, and even if it consists of more than one word. WP:SOVEREIGN explicitly says we should Only use a territorial designation (e.g. country) when disambiguation is needed (emphasis mine). HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 01:03, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's part of the main article titling policy. See WP:CONCISE: Exceptions exist for biographical articles. It then gives exaples of the SINGLENAME variety, but nothing suggests that exceptions of the "Nicholas II of Russia" type are out of step with it. Srnec (talk) 21:21, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • WP:SOVEREIGN says that {of country} is not an exception to WP:CONCISE, and this was decided in this recent RfC on the subject. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:00, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support as strong candidate for primary topic. Killuminator (talk) 01:22, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and also per WP:SOVEREIGN. Векочел (talk) 02:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - There's absolutely no justification for this request. Deb (talk) 13:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As the person who nominated this, I am a little taken aback that you are accusing me of filing an RM without justification. The first sentence in the RM was

    WP:SOVEREIGN says we should only use a territorial designation (e.g. country) when disambiguation is needed.

    How is that not justification? HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:00, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] Disambiguation clearly is needed in this case. If you walked down any street and asked someone who "Nicholas II" was, you'd almost certainly get a blank look. But ask them who "Nicholas II of Russia" is, and they might well say "Oh, wasn't he the emperor who got shot?" Deb (talk) 09:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] If you asked them about Pope Nicholas II or these obscure noblemen you'd get another blank look, so just goes to show who the primary topic is. It's an easy enough experiment to leave the ''thought experiment'' realm into the practical real. Random people you'd meet on the street are likely not Wikipedians. Killuminator (talk) 13:12, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] I feel like this is a fair point for some of the lesser known monarchs like Gustaf IV Adolf, or even Ferdinand VII, but I feel like if you were to walk down the street and ask someone who "Nicholas II" was, you'd problem get a vaguely correct answer, just as would happen if you asked this hypothetical person who Elizabeth II was. Plus, WP:RECOGNIZABILITY doesn't even require a title be sufficiently recognizable for an average person on a street, but rather for someone familiar with, though not necessarily an expert in, the subject area… estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:33, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose 'II' Isn't enough of a differentiation from other nicks—blindlynx 15:37, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment It sort of breaks the consistency with Nicholas I of Russia, which means that readers might be left confused as to why one page uses a territorial designation and the other one does not. Keivan.fTalk 01:29, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] That's pretty much the case with every other monarch we've moved like this. One could just as easily wonder why George II of Great Britain uses a territorial designation, while George III does not. Even if a reader noticed, I doubt they would give it much of a thought. estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:37, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] Another reason we shouldn't be moving them. Deb (talk) 09:51, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] No it’s not a reason against moving them. This apparent inconsistency in related titles is a necessary and unavoidable result of disambiguating only when necessary in accordance with CRITERIA, particularly CONCISE snd PRECISE (but no more precise than necessary). In fact, this exception is explicitly noted at WP:CONSISTENT and is not contrary to policy. — В²C ☎ 20:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] Well, to be fair in the case of George II vs George III the names of the realms changed. It was during George III's reign that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was formed. I don't think any such changes in names occurred when the Russian emperors were ruling (?). Keivan.fTalk 21:03, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. There are too many other Nicholas II’s. Regards, Robertus Pius (Talk • Contribs) 19:38, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support he is commonly referred to as Nicholas the II and I feel it would be a better title for the page. PrincessJoey2024 (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Too many Nicholas II. Doesn’t meet criteria. Azarctic (talk) 17:08, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] It doesn't matter how many other Nicholas IIs there are, as this one is the clear primary topic and has been a primary redirect since 2007. Rosbif73 (talk) 17:44, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. There are other important people named Nicholas II, that's why we have Nicholas II (disambiguation). 🔥Jalapeño🔥 Stupid stuff I did 15:40, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Opposition is completely ignoring PRIMARYTOPIC. My goodness. Nicholas II has redirected here for almost 20 years without dispute. That establishes this Nicholas II is the PT no matter how many others are listed on the dab page. Even if that was an error, then opposers have the burden to show this one is not primary. Pointlessly noting the undisputed ambiguity as if that’s relevant here is unhelpful. The closer is required to discount these !votes accordingly. The only substantive opposition is based on COMMONNAME, holding that the proposed title is not sufficiently recognizable. But NCROY flies in the face of this position when it says “of country” is to be included only when necessary for disambiguation. So per NCROY, CONCISE, PRECISE, COMMONNAME, and PRIMARYTOPIC, not to mention a dearth of any opposition that holds up to scrutiny, this article must be moved as proposed. —В²C ☎ 20:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] CONCISE, PRECISE, COMMONNAME, and PRIMARYTOPIC support Einstein over Albert Einstein. CONCISE specifically states that axceptions exist for biographical articles and does not limit these exceptions specifically. Srnec (talk) 02:14, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] Albert Einstein is the name of the article per WP:NCP. As a recognised naming convention, there is some primacy given to WP:CONSISTENTcy. At WP:CONCISE (part of the policy, WP:AT) we are also told: ... given names and family names are usually not omitted or abbreviated for the purposes of concision (with a specific link to WP:NCP) In the case of Nicholas II, WP:NCROY permits the proposed move in the circumstances that apply. WP:P&G does not support Einstein being the article title. The argument being made is a false analogy Cinderella157 (talk) 04:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] The point is that prior to the change to NCROY, the current title was as supported as Albert Einstein. In other words, it has nothing to do with CONCISE, PRECISE, COMMONNAME, and PRIMARYTOPIC and everything to do with NCROY—a recenty and highly disputed change. I oppose the move because I oppose the chaneg to NCROY. The current title is as compliant with CONCISE, PRECISE, COMMONNAME, and PRIMARYTOPIC as Albert Einstein is. Srnec (talk) 16:49, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] Not at all. As Cinderella157 noted, support for titles like Albert Einstein is explicitly baked into WP:CRITERIA at WP:AT. Support for the current title here is not. The current title was never compliant; even with the former guidance at NCROY it was a begrudgingly tolerated exception that contradicted policy. If fact, that's why it was fixed, with a strong consensus, by the way. --В²C ☎ 21:22, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] I have no idea what you mean by explicitly baked into WP:CRITERIA. As for the strong consensus, that has been answered at Talk:Charles XI of Sweden. —Srnec (talk) 02:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] What I mean is that CRITERIA, more precisely WP:CONCISION, explicitly specifies guidance for titles like Albert Einstein: “given names and family names are usually not omitted or abbreviated for the purposes of concision”, as noted by Cinderella157. Your contention that CRITERIA support Einstein over Albert Einstein is incorrect. However, there is no guidance allowing for “of country” contravening CONCISE there, or anywhere at WP:AT, unless needed for disambiguation. The jury is still out at Charles XI, so I have no idea what you think has been answered there. —В²C ☎ 14:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support In these circumstances, the prevailing WP:P&G is quite clear. This article is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Nicholas II and Nicholas II is currently a redirect to this article. The of Russia in the present title is therefore redundant. WP:TITLEDAB would tell us to prefer concision over unnecessary precision. While there may be articles for others called Nicholas II, there is no actual conflict in article titles needing to be resolved by a more precise name. The move is also consistent with WP:NCROY. There is no conflict with WP:COMMONNAME. Nicholas II is his commonly used name, not something else like Peter the Great. Whether it is sometimes preceded by Tsar or succeeded by of Russia is immaterial. The use of Tsar would be deprecated by WP:NCROY save in exceptional circumstances and the of Russia is unnecessary precision for the same reason King Louis XVI of France is a redirect and not the article name. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:23, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nom. An emperor ✖ 05:45, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. This seems to be another in a series of requests triggered by a contentious change to NCROY. While I agree it's generally best to apply a guideline consistently once it's established, not every change to every guideline actually works out — and one of the ways we determine whether it is working out is by observing RMs like these. From what I can see, they've been uniformly contentious with the community widely split on whether the proposed titles are actually better than the existing ones, with policy-based arguments both ways. Given that some such RMs have failed entirely (the Edwards, Richards, Christians, etc.), I think the signs strongly point to revisiting NCROY (and it looks like that discussion may already be starting there).

  A misleading argument I see from supporters is that if a more concise form redirects to a less concise one — in this case Nicholas II redirecting to Nicholas II of Russia — then the more concise form must necessarily be the preferable title, but policy does not assert that. Cézanne, for instance, is more concise than Paul Cézanne; 110th Congress is more concise than 110th United States Congress; Missoula is more concise than Missoula, Montana; and US and UK are more concise than United States and United Kingdom. In innumerable cases Wikipedia redirects shorter forms to longer or more descriptive titles, because there are other relevant factors that policy insists we consider. These sometimes make the less concise form the better/preferable one, and this applies to articles on nobility.

  Per WP:CRITERIA, "the choice of article titles should put the interests of readers before those of editors, and those of a general audience before those of specialists." No one has made the case that removing the nation from this title actually serves the reader in any way or improves their experience; including it, though, provides context helpful to the reader and improves recognizability. Also, since WP:COMMONNAME directs us to seek titles "in an encyclopedic register", it's useful to see that the Britannica article includes the clarifier "Tsar of Russia" with the title, again presumably in the interests of their readers. Put simply, and NCROY notwithstanding, I just don't see any benefits to these changes that outweigh the cons. ╠╣uw [talk] 17:06, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  So many words to say so little. The underlying issue is about category-specific guidelines merely supplementing CRITERIA (particularly with respect to disambiguation guidance when necessary), or whether it’s acceptable to contravene CRITERIA, and if so, under what conditions. More and more we seem to be moving towards the former view, which basically means disambiguate only when necessary. Regarding benefiting readers, readers benefit the same regardless of what the title is. —В²C ☎ 17:59, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's demonstrably false and doesn't address the relevant issues, but at least it's concise, which I guess is all that matters. ╠╣uw [talk] 21:36, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] Please demonstrate that readers benefit from "Nicholas II of Russia" as a title more than they benefit more from "Nicholas II" as a title. Please account for the fact that when the article is at "Nicholas II", "Nicholas II of Russia" redirects to this article (and vice versa), and the article's lead sentence specifies the subject is "of Russia". --В²C ☎ 02:17, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] I was referring to your claim that "readers benefit the same regardless of what the title is." That's false. There's no technical reason we couldn't title our articles using GUIDs, but doing so would (among other things) make it impossible to search for articles by title, which would worsen readers' experience. As for royal naming conventions, consider Charles X and Charles XI. Is it sufficiently clear to whom those titles refer? And is it clear that they're monarchs of two entirely different nations? Even as someone familiar with royalty, I'd say no. The titles Charles X of France and Charles XI of Sweden, however, do indicate the subject with sufficient clarity. Including the nation adds important context that helps readers better recognize what the article is about. That other important encyclopedias like Britannica also include such clarifiers with their titles is another good indication that it's beneficial, desirable, and serves an important purpose. (And WP:COMMONNAME specifically encourages us to make such comparisons.) The same applies to the article we're considering here: simply put, Nicholas II of Russia better meets our standards for a good title than Nicholas II. In part this is because including the nation better serves the interests of our readers, as shown — something that WP:CRITERIA specifically instructs us to consider. In part it's also because doing otherwise fails WP:CONSISTENT, given that we'll apparently be keeping his predecessor at Nicholas I of Russia. Will readers appreciate why they follow different patterns? Unlikely. The reason is a specialist concern of importance only to editors, and (again) policy is clear that that's not our priority. ╠╣uw [talk] 13:40, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] WP:CONSISTENT tells us that just because Georgia (country) exists, there is no reason to have articles titled, for instance, Azerbaijan (country), Armenia (country), etc.. Exactly the same logic applies to sovereigns and "of country" descriptors. Readers don't need to appreciate the reasons behind the different patterns, any more than they need to worry about the internal workings of Wikipedia, because the entire system is designed with readers in mind (in particular with redirects and short descriptions to help guide them to the article they are looking for). Rosbif73 (talk) 14:17, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] That passage notes specifically that parenthetical disambiguators required for one article don’t need to be applied to all others that are not ambiguous. I agree with that — but that’s not the situation here. Nicholas II, after all, is technically unambiguous (just as UK or Cézanne or 103rd Congress are). The “of country” clarifiers for royal articles exist to help us best meet our good title criteria, and to best serve the interests of our readers — and as such they should be applied consistently. As the policy notes, “we follow patterns from article titles for similar topics to the extent that this is practical.” It’s clearly not impractical to consistently include the country, particularly if doing so serves a beneficial purpose — and as I and others contend, it does. ╠╣uw [talk] 14:53, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] I see parenthetical disambiguators and "of country" disambiguators as totally analogous; both can be omitted except when needed to resolve ambiguity. I guess we'll have to agree to differ on that, and on whether including the country consistently would serve a beneficial purpose. Rosbif73 (talk) 15:47, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] Yes, it would be impossible to search for articles by title if we used GUIDs for titles, but it wouldn’t worsen reader experiences, at least not in terms of searching. Because redirects. The only advantage of using the recognizable COMMONNAME for the title rather than a GUID is to inform the reader what the COMMONNAME is for the subject once they land there. In fact, for all intents and purposes for most readers our FLORA articles use GUIDs for their titles, except of course they’re not really GUIDs; they’re the scientific names. But for most of us they’re just as obscure, random and arbitrary as GUID titles would be, EXCEPT, they inform us of the scientific name. Try looking up Joshua Tree, Redwood or Milkweed by their actual titles instead of by these redirects. Good luck. So when you land at Asclepias by searching with “milkweed” does it really matter that the title is Asclepias since it’s in the lead sentence also? In that case I submit the article would be no less helpful with a random meaningless GUID title. However, I still wouldn’t support using GUIDs because for many articles, like John Wayne, the COMMONNAME isn’t as obviously specified in the lead sentence.

1. The main purpose of a title is to be a unique identifier for the article.
2. The secondary purpose of the title is to definitively specify the COMMONNAME to the reader.
3. A bonus function of titles is they inform the reader not only of what the COMMONNAME is, but also if whether it’s primary (or unambiguous), or whether it’s ambiguous and not primary.
4. Nothing meaningful in a title serves any purpose in searching. Just being the redirect target of any likely search term fulfills all search requirements.
5. Due to technical requirements the COMMONNAME may need to be disambiguated
6. If not for #2 and #3, titles could be random unique GUIDs.
7. #2 is also why it’s critical that titles reflect the COMMONNAME per CRITERIA, disambiguated only if necessary.
8. It’s important to only disambiguate when necessary consistently so that our #3 is reliably conveyed to our readers. The current title, “Nicholas II of Russia” is misleading with respect to 3: it wrongly implies this Nicholas II is not the primary topic for this name, and requires disambiguation.
9. Because the only purposes/functions of titles are #1-3, adding “clarity” or any additional information to a title besides COMMONNAME and necessary disambiguation is a disservice to our readers.

— В²C ☎ 00:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] Addressing the argument made in opposition by the OP of this sub-thread:

• No one has made the case that removing the nation from this title actually serves the reader in any way or improves their experience; including it, though, provides context helpful to the reader and improves recognizability. The relevant question is whether it (significantly) decreases the reader experience and conversely, whether it (significantly) increases the reader experience. The WP:CRITERIA must be balanced and not every criterion necessarily carries equal weight. If the title is sufficiently recognisable, then additional precision to improve recognisability is unnecessary and to be balanced against WP:CONCISION Given that Nicholas II is the primary topic, it is sufficiently recognisable for someone familiar with ... the subject area will recognize.
• it's useful to see that the Britannica article includes the clarifier "Tsar of Russia" with the title, again presumably in the interests of their readers This presumption is unsubstantiated opinion. Britannica is but one encyclopedia. There are few online encyclopedias that would be considered WP:RSs but Oxford Reference would use Nicholas II (1868–1918) in four English language publications. Encyclopedia.com here, would similarly give an additional three English language publications. For whatever reasons, of Russia is not considered as necessary. From WP:AT: Other encyclopedias are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register, as well as what names are most frequently used. These other encyclopedic publications do not support the additional precision in the title Nicholas II of Russia.
• An argument falling to other stuff would cite exceptions to using the shorter titles: US, UK, Cézanne, Missoula and 110th Congress. Other stuff arguments lack validity unless such examples are directly analogous and reflect best practice. Simply presenting these examples, as done, is not a cogent argument. On the use of abbreviations as article titles, WP:AT would specifically refer to WP:Manual of Style/Abbreviations § Acronyms in page titles which states: In general, if readers somewhat familiar with the subject are likely to only recognise the name by its acronym, then the acronym should be used as a title - ie, we are being told by WP:P&G that we generally prefer the expanded names as article titles over abbreviations. For the names of people, WP:CONCISE (at WP:AT) would state: ... given names and family names are usually not omitted or abbreviated for the purposes of concision (with a specific link to WP:NCP). We are told by WP:P&G that we generally use both the given name and surname of a person in an article title. Missoula, Montana is preferred by the naming convention WP:USPLACE at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), which is specifically recognised by WP:AT. 110th United States Congress is a numeric sequence consistent with the parent article United States Congress, where Congress is another topic and, while there may not be a need to disambiguate the 110th Congress, there is a need to disambiguate other congresses (eg 1st Congress). There is, therefore, a strong logical argument to maintain consistency across the numeric series of titles. For one reason, a common pattern facilitates the infobox template coding to link to preceding and succeeding congresses in the infobox.

These other stuff examples are a fallacious argument by false analogy.

• A misleading argument I see from supporters is that if a more concise form redirects to a less concise one — in this case Nicholas II redirecting to Nicholas II of Russia — then the more concise form must necessarily be the preferable title, but policy does not assert that. At WP:TITLEDAB (part of WP:AT): According to the above-mentioned precision criterion, when a more detailed title is necessary to distinguish an article topic from another, use only as much additional detail as necessary. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is specifically referred to at WP:PRECISION (part of WP:AT). It would tell us that while a term preferred for a title may be ambiguous, if there is a primary target for this otherwise ambiguous term, then the preferred term should nonetheless be used for the article which is the primary target. The arguments being made here are that these shorter titles are either unambiguous or that they are reasonably the primary target. WP:OVERPRECISION is an alternative shortcut for WP:PRECISION at WP:AT. It gives the example, ... Saint Teresa of Calcutta is too precise, as Mother Teresa is precise enough ... Nicholas II of Russia is a very similar form to Saint Teresa of Calcutta. Just as Mother Teresa is precise enough, Nicholas II is also precise enough because these titles are the primary topics. WP:AT is clearly asserting that we should only apply sufficient precision to resolve ambiguity between titles of other articles, notwithstanding some exceptions that are given at WP:AT or acknowledged naming conventions and like. Names such as this with the pattern X of Y exist because of a somewhat mandatory naming pattern that existed at WP:NCROY which was in conflict with the policy at WP:AT and actual practice. This inconsistency has now been remedied by this RfC.

In summary, there is no substance to the arguments made. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, the arguments are quite exploded. Cinderella157 (talk) 13:19, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply] Cinderella157: Great volume does not an explosion make. A few points:

• Yes, we can safely assume that the presence of the clarifier in Britannica is for the benefit of its readers. Who else?
• The very encyclopedia.com web page you cite as evidence that encyclopedias don't use the clarifier is titled “Nicholas II (Russia)”.
• Further, encyclopedia.com references the Encyclopedia of Modern Europe which includes with the title the clarifier “emperor of Russia”. And the Encyclopedia of Russian History which it also references would not note the country because it's explicitly Russian.
• The most concise unambiguous form is indeed preferred, but policy does not require it if an alternative better meets our criteria. Again, WP practice abundantly affirms this.
• Your comments about PT make my point: in many areas we do indeed follow patterns that redirect more concise unambiguous terms to longer ones because doing so can help us achieve the best and most encyclopedic titles, or achieve sets of titles that are more consistent than they would be otherwise. We refine and adjust these guidelines as needs are identified... and my sense from RMs like this one and others is that NCROY needs such revision.

Finally: it's fine for editors to weight criteria and interpret policies differently, and I appreciate that you and B2C share a different opinion than mine. My posts here are replies to my own !vote, and I have no interest in bludgeoning others. Please show the same courtesy. Cheers, ╠╣uw [talk] 00:29, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• oppose It makes no sense - but then the naming of monarchs and spouses of monarchs all over Wikipedia are a mess, as are the ridiculous rules which are dismissed as amateurish by historians. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 19:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]