Talk:Indigenous Aryanism

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'No Support in mainstream scholarship'

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Moved from User talk:Sagar0311
 – Of common interest, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:16, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan What was not constructive? A sentence was just removed which was a very generalized statement without credible citation. A PDF file which is provided cannot define mainstream scholarship related to History. The paper clearly mentions at the beginning 'This paper presents the respondent's general comments'. The topic is about India and there are conflicting views in India about this. There are Historians in India with a lot of followers who are against Aryan migration theory who say that it fails to produce considerable historical evidence about the authenticity of these migrations and the article's topic is exactly about this contradictory view point. So the sentence which reflects the general comment which is in stark contrast to a historical view point was removed by not editing the rest of the paragraph which has proper citations. Sagar0311 (talk) 12:22, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're probably deliberately ignorant; the note cites six sources. That scholars in India - only India - deviate from mainstream scholarship on this topic tells a lot about the academic quality of those scholars. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:26, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply] @Joshua Jonathan The first time when the sentence was removed it was only citing one James Mallory paper, these sources are tagged later to the note when the edit was reversed. Anyways, majority scholars in the sources are only presenting one side of this topic, as l mentioned earlier there are scholars from the other side with lot of followers in this country specially in recent times who produce contradictory views to Aryan migration theory which is not substantiated. This topic is related to the civilizational identity of the people of this country and is sensitive. Dismissing the other side and calling only one side of scholars as mainstream seems biased considering Wikipedia's neutral policy, that's why I edited and removed the sentence. Just for my clarity, you are an administrative editor, right Sagar0311 (talk) 15:17, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply] Nope. The note already had six references. But let's have a closer look: have you got some sources which argue for the indigenous theory? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:40, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshua Jonathan When I checked, it just had one, which I mentioned, that was the main reason to edit. Anyways following are the sources

  • 2. Michel Danino, member of the Indian Council of Historical Research, Government of India
  • 16. Dr. B. R. Ambedkar who headed the committee drafting the Constitution in his campaign in support of the nation's dalit community noticed the racial overtones underlying the theory and described the British espousal of the Aryan Invasion theory in the following words:
"The theory of invasion is an invention. This invention is necessary because of a gratuitous assumption that the Indo-Germanic people are the purest of the modern representation of the original Aryan race. The theory is a perversion of scientific investigation. It is not allowed to evolve out of facts. On the contrary, the theory is preconceived and facts are selected to prove it. It falls to the ground at every point."

There are plenty of more sources, but the point is that historians are from both the sides. Aryan Migration or Invasion is a theory and it's not accepted completely and also rejected by many. In that article only calling one side as mainstream is not neutral. If you still want to keep the sentence and not remove it completely it can go like following

" It has no relevance and is not supported by some scholars and historians"

Similarly the title "Rejection by mainstream scholarship" in the article can be changed to

"Rejection by scholars and historians"

I just wanted to know as I asked you last time you are from the Wikipedia admin team or editors, right Sagar0311 (talk) 11:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply] 

End of copied part
  • ad 1. Vasant Shinde made a fool of himself. He was the main author of the 2019 Cell-publication on the Rakhigarhi-DNA, which explicitly confirmed the the Indo-Aryan migrations; the day after the publication, at a press-conference, he publicly rejected their findings, and spoke out in defense of the Out of India 'theory'. The Deccan Herald mindlessly copied his statements. Scrol.in paid more attention: "On Wednesday, an Economic Times report put out a preview of those results based on comments by one of the authors, but drew conclusions that left experts scratching their heads, because they seemed to contradict the findings mentioned in the report."
  • ad 2. Michel Danino has less tha zero credibility with regard to Indian history; his writings are rambling, without relevance in academic discussions.
  • ad 3. Chavda is the perennial non-expert; often referred to by editors in support of Indigenous Aryanism, but zero academic credibility.
  • ad 4. Jadunath Sarkar died in 1958; in which publication, still relevant today, did het voice support for Indigenous Aryanism?
  • ad 5. B. B. Lal: his archaeological work from the 1950s was outstanding, but his views on Indigenous Aryanism are completely irrelevant for contemporary academic scholarship.
  • ad 6. Nicholas Kazanas (Deutsche Wikipedia - was his English page deleted? "Seit den 1990ern vertritt Kazanas die Indian Urheimat theory,[1] eine Minderheits-These, die heute neben Wissenschaftlern wie Kazanas und Michel Danino stark von hindunationalistischen Kreisen wie beispielsweise der BJP vertreten wird.[7]" But yes, he had a publication in the Journal of Indo-European Studies (founded by James Mallory, the one with the PDF you thought to be irrelevant): "Seine Position wurde mehrheitlich kritisiert, u. a. von Michael Witzel, Richard Meadow, Martin Huld, Edwin Bryant, D. P. Agrawal, Asko Parpola, Stefan Zimmer, J. P. Mallory und Elena Kuzmina.[9]"
  • ad 7. Shrikant G. Talageri, redirects to Indigenous Aryanism. "Analysing the works of Sethna, Bhagwan Singh, Navaratna and Talageri, he notes that they mostly quote English literature, which is not fully explored, and omitting German and French Indology. It makes their works in various degrees underinformed, resulting in a critique that is "largely neglected by Western scholars because it is regarded as incompetent".[165]"
  • ad 8. Swaraj Prakash Gupta. The Indus-Sarasvati Civilization: Beginnings and Development (1999) was a smash-hit: seven cites.
  • ad 9. Klaus Klostermaier, an afrticle from 1998, published at the iskcon-site. Says it all, doesn't it? Klostermaier is noted for his support for Indigenous Aryanism; it makes his works less reliable.
  • ad. 10. Sita Ram Goel, died 2003. "His work has been both celebrated and criticised for its bias towards Hindu nationalism and its controversial portrayal of other religions, particularly Islam and Christianity.[1][2] In his later career, Goel transitioned into a role as a commentator on Indian politics, aligning himself openly with Hindu nationalism." Voice of India cites from a 1982-publication.
  • ad 11. R.C. Majumdar, article from 1959.
  • ad 12. N. S. Rajaram. ".He is notable for propounding the "Indigenous Aryans" hypothesis, asserting that the Vedic period was extremely advanced from a scientific view-point, and claiming of having deciphered the Indus script.[1] Academics find his scholarship to be composed of dishonest polemics in service of a communal agenda.[2][3][4][5]"
  • ad 13. Stephen Knapp (2012), The Vedic Friends Association.
  • ad 14. Disha Ahluwalia - who? The Ranveer Show?
  • ad 15. "Research papers ranging from those claiming that information on Netaji’s disappearance was suppressed by the British and Indian governments to ones questioning the Aryan invasion theory will be presented at the conference, that began on Monday."
  • ad 16. B. R. Ambedkar, died in 1956, not an historian, archaeologist or linguist.
  • ad 17. Archaeology online...
  • ad 18. " I wish to reiterate that the successive findings from genetic researchers in the late 20th century dealt a significant blow to the 'Aryan Invasion Theory'" - the author missed-out on Narsimhan et al. (2019)?
  • ad 19. Madan Lal Goel - who?

I appreciate the time and effort you put in compiling this list, but they neatly underscore the corretcness of the statement " It has no relevance, let alone support, in mainstream scholarship." There are only three authors with publications in relevant journals or with relevant books: Shinde, Lal, Kazanas, and Klostermaier. Shinde rejected his own research; Lal's views on Indigenous Aryanism are academically irrelevant; Kazanas' publication was a one-time slip of academical standards; and Klostermaier's views on Indigenous Aryanism, despite his Survey of Hnduism, are academically rejected as well. The rest is academically irrelevant. It only supports the preceding line, "Support for the IAT mostly exists among a subset of Indian scholars of Hindu religion and the history and archaeology of India,[10][11][12][13][5] and plays a significant role in Hindutva politics.[14][15][3][web 1][web 2]." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshua Jonathan The reply was much anticipated. There is no point in going ahead; the narrative is already set. Whatever may come along the way, somehow to prove it wrong, reality doesn't matter, and neutrality doesn't matter. It has already been decided by a group that considers itself the final authority on who should be called scholars and historians and who should not, irrespective of neutrality. Many of the scholars and historians I mentioned in my previous reply are regarded as highly esteemed individuals. I could do the same with the entire list of so-called scholars and historians mentioned in that note. There is a large segment that questions the credibility of these so-called scholars and historians, but that doesn't matter. What matters is the narrative that must be served, let alone the truth and reality. Sagar0311 (talk) 06:04, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply] Wikipedia summarizes scholarly research; if you don't like scientific methodology, well, not fine, but Indigenous Aryanism stands where it stands: a religious-political ideology (narrative), thinly disguised as science. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:35, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply] @Joshua Jonathan Well, in this case, it doesn't seem like it. The definition of scholars is questionable, and I don't see any scientific methodology. There is no such thing as 'Indigenous Aryanism'; there's only the Aryan Migration Theory, which is a narrative constructed by a few far-left, politically motivated scholars labeled as mainstream. However, regardless of ideology, Wikipedia recognizes them as scholars, historians, archaeologists, or writers. This applies to both sides, which is why I suggested removing the word 'mainstream.' If someone claims that migration occurred thousands of years ago, it’s their responsibility to prove it. The Aryan Migration Theory lacks substantial evidence to be accepted as reality. Sagar0311 (talk) 06:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply] @Sagar0311, one of the sources in your list actually largely supports the migration theory [1]. Also, I don't think we should give much weight to the sources that were published before the DNA studies were conducted. Alaexis¿question? 09:06, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply] @Alaexis Which one? DNA study is a joke. Sagar0311 (talk) 11:21, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply] And even if it is considered, both sides are producing contradictory reports. Sagar0311 (talk) 11:37, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply] I've linked it, the article says Except, as more than a few have pointed out, this conclusion actually seems to lend credence to the Aryan invasion, or migration, theory. Alaexis¿question? 11:48, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply] DNA study is a joke - sure, if you don't like the outcomes. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:12, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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